Prefanatic pity the Morning Advertiser says completely the opposite- "trade thumbs down to the ban".

The ban is certainly the only change that happened in the last 12 months as all the other factors people mention happened before the ban. For what?? Passive smoking has been proven to be nothing more than a mere irritant.

I couldn't agree more with 'PNEfanatic' that the Pub Co's are taking Landlords for a ride. But I couldn't disagree more with him that it's the reason behind the carnage in the industry.

The staggering rise in the rate of bankruptcies coincided with the July '07 smoking ban which tipped these highly geared businesses with their (Pub Co rigged) low margin models into the abiss.

Wayne Rishton in this article claims it dropped trade by 50%. From what I've seen and heard 30-40% drop in trade is the norm so I wouldn't argue with a number of Pubs like Mr Rishtons' showing higher impacts in certain locations with higher than normal smokers as customers.

The question is why, unlike the German and Dutch publicans, is the British trade rolling over like lemmings without a fight. The whinging gets nobody nowhere. It is up to Publicans and Club owners to meet up and start a fight (ie. make it difficult for your trade bodies and the politicians to continue to ignore you).

The health research that passive smoking is harmless is out there. So if you care about your livelihoods stand up and be counted.

Of course there are no other factors causing bankruptcies other than the smoking ban.

It's not like the economy is in complete shambles with the credit crunch, fuel prices and costs of basic goods such as milk, cheese and bread are on the rise is it.

Because it happened around the same time as the smoking ban was introduced, it MUST be because of the ban mustn't it. By the same argument it's because of the smoking ban that England failed to qualify for Euro 2008. Happened around the same time so it must be right

Smoking is an annihilistic reaction to post-modern cynicism. Humanism is the only viable raison d'etre. The only pleasure left is the creative expression of human labour...enjoy.

I agree with Dave Thorp, all these needless rises are what couse bankruptsie and his examples are perfectly true!

PNEfanatic, if you can relate 1 death, inc Roy Castles, to passive smoking then you're doing better than any health study ever conducted world wide!!
Nobody can actually point a finger at a smokers death and say the cause is smoking, just that the risks increase if cancer has your number on it.
As a non-smoker your risk is something like 1 in 180,000 while as a smoker it's nearer 1 in 45,000. Let me repeat, according to 5 out of 6 credable studies the risks run from passive smoking are zero.

Dave Thorpe, I'm not aware the England failure is due to the smoking ban as Scotland and Ireland also failed to qualify and their bans were far earlier. I also didn't note any legislation being introduced at the time of Englands exit.

Ask any smoker how often the venture to the Pub after the ban. Ask Publicans who all report a 20-30% drop in their takings (except those that have managed to find other revenue streams like food).

If you think a tripling in the rate of Pub closures since the ban is due to 'other factors' maybe you should get more clued up on what's happening with smokers. At the mo' you appear out-of-touch and unqualified to speak about the topic.

Funny cos all the pubs I've been in since the ban have still been busy with customers.

Before claiming someone is out of touch you may want to get in touch yourself, at least to the extent where you can spell (or failing that copy and paste) their name. If that's the effect smoking has no wonder it's banned!

Dave and PNEfanatic,
You're out-of-touch because firstly you're not smokers. As a smoker, who knows other smokers, we don't frequent Pubs anymore on a regular basis.
Secondly if we do go to a Pub we're in and out after 1 drink, not hanging around for 3 or 4 like we used to.
Thirdly I'm a businessman (who can't spell, thanks for the tip!.. my dictions below par too before you mention it) who knows the economics behind the Pubs numbers and faced with a loss of 20-30% of your turnover the Pubs actually have very few options (new revenue streams) available to them to grab back that business.
Finally there's 2 alternative surveys to the one you mention. The Morning Advetisers results say 68% of publicans want the ban repealed and accountants Price Waterhouse survey into the industry further backs up the economic damage being done by the smoking ban and predicts further carnage for the next 2 years primarily from the smoking ban.
If you think you're 'in-touch' from 1 survey and being non-smokers then maybe we could all borrow your crystal balls to look for scapegoats for parking fines!
PNE's comment it's "the greedy Pub Cos" has been around for years and . The article also notes customers outside the Pub to smoke being moved on by Police. So add insult to injury. The ban is destructive full stop.

Statistics keep getting banded about on here and the other thread when 82% of people know that you can use statistic to prove anything.

For example, on the other thread there is a link to a petition with a massive 300 or so signatures. This means that 99.999% of people don't want the smoking ban lifted. Pretty conclusive!

Dave, I have to agree there's lies, damn lies and government statistics. Like the Scottish Health Minister claiming "a 17% drop in heart attacks since the ban" which has been trashed and The Times included in their Top 10 Junk Science claims of 2007.

Then there's the British national newspaper claiming the same drops in English heart attacks since the ban (the journalist claims to have got the figures under use of the Official Secrets Act!). Also trashed as junk science and statistical nonesense.

I agree only 300 have signed the 'Ban the Ban' petition but I make that 100% more than has signed the 'Save the Ban' petition and 200 more people than will vote for these Labour losers at the next election!!